PPH hiding Buyer details.. Seller's Point of view
Why are buyer details being hidden from sellers?.. When i bid for a job, a buyer has the option to view my portfolio, my past jobs, and all my ratings.
I'd like to see the same for Buyesr, so I can vett, whom I'd like to workk with and whom not. The minimum you can do is list their past projects. That way we get an idea of ppl who abuse the system by posting very low budget jobs, who is a "project manager", and who is a real client.
If as a seller I am disclosing so much info, the least we can have in terms of the buyer is their past projects, jobs they advertised. So its easier to weed out the time wasters.
Thanks
-
Official comment
Many thanks for your message.
I have opened up a ticket for you with our customer support team and someone will email you soon.
Please let me know if I can help you with anything else.
Comment actions -
Another reason for this is that I was recently invited by a buyer to bid. During the process they asked me to download their "custom server", so that we could communicate, I downloaded the file and realised I should not open it as it could be a virus. I asked them to contact me via PPH's phone app, next thing I know they cancelled the job and disappeared..
My guess, someone trying to spread malware on PPH. So please lets try and also ensure some transparency for buyers and protection for sellers.
-
PPH purport to create a 'contract' between buyers and seller but it's difficult to see how that contract can have legal validity when the precise identity of the seller is undisclosed.
One seller, posting on this forum, was refused details of a 'misbehaving' buyer on 'Data Protection Act' grounds.
I recently won a bid from 'Alex', only to find that he was actually 'Arnold' whose employer was the ultimate client.
The 10,000+ words of PPH 'Terms & Conditions' don't really mean a lot when one of the contracting parties is not clearly identified.
Happily, there were no problems with Alex/Arnold/A.N. Other but where would I have stood if there were?
-
Great points Les. Anyone can post a job, and to my knowledge at no cost for posting. I've had similar situations to your Alex/Arnold example. Was approached by a very rude seller looking to have a silicon mask made. She invited me, within, 2 or 3 messages I realised she was trouble, asking me to reduce my fees drastically just for her. When I refused, she got abusive. Next thing I know someone with a different name posts the same job, and I get another invite..
-
George
You make a good point - despite an apparently-tough 'approval' process, buyers can easily masquerade under multiple identities.
I must say that most of my PPH clients have been great but there was one who blatantly ripped me off, demanding a reduction of the clearly-agreed price before they would pay.
Several previous phases of development had gone well but the problem arose with a change of Administrator who saw his role as playing 'hardball' with suppliers.Despite my complaints and ample written evidence of the client's dishonesty, they were allowed to post new jobs on PPH.
The arrogance of this client was demonstrated by a later 'invitation to bid' for upgrades to the database system which I had originally developed.
Another good point about downloads - I have occasionally downloaded potentially-harmful items in the process of bidding on PPH. -
This issue seriously needs to be looked at by the devs.. If you don't want to reveal buyer details please atleast let us know details of what jobs they've advertised in the past.
I just came through a dispute with someone, who has apparently done this to a number of sellers.. (I completed the job, he approved it, then refused to pay, saying it was not what he wanted). I contacted PPH, and they asked me to resolve it with him, I basically had to agree to give him the work at the deposit price.. The alternative would've been a formal process, which PPH charges for.. and the seller has no recourse should the buyer refuse to approve 2 further edits.. I don't want to go through this again..
It's the least you can do so please make this happen. Buyer's previous jobs should be made visible. along with feedback they got on those.
-
Taking a general overview of the PPH service, I wouldn't put too much faith in their ability to resolve the matter with a 'formal' process.
At the end of the day, PPH have no leverage to make the buyer pay.
Even if the matter went to a legal action, it's difficult to make a claim if the identity of the defaulting party is unclear.
The much-vaunted 'buyer protection' is based on the concept that the seller always requests the money 'up front' which always strikes me as 'unprofessional'.
Also, given the recent Payment problems which saw dozens of complaints on this forum, I don't particularity trust PPH to hold large sums of my money.
Upwork have a better system whereby they establish a payment method and simply direct debit the money when it is due.
Of course,that doesn't stop the buyer canceling the payment authority though that is a deliberate fraud rather than a delaying tactic.
In my experience, buyers with a valid problem will let you know quickly and give you the chance to remedy it, as they are legally obliged to do.
Buyers who simply wish to avoid payment tend to go 'incommunicado' and only come up with silly excuses when they are chased 'in earnest'. -
Well said mate.. This guy basically approved everything, then turned around and said it wasn't right, literally 8 hours later, when I asked him how it could be fixed.. No response, argued with me 1 whole day.. Over £50.. In the end I just decided to let it go as it wasted such a colossal amount of my time for such a piddly sum.. He then complained that this was "the second time it happened to HIM"... I never saw it coming.. Had no idea who this person was, what projects they'd worked on, or what their feedback was.. Completely blindsided..
-
After I submitted the completed job including additional work which the buyer agreed in writing to pay additional fee's I've had no response from the buyer and no payment! I'm absolutely furious and completely in the dark. I should be given the opportunity to obtain my outstanding fee's without having to rely on PPH!
-
You could ask PPH to intervene.. They charge a fee though, and the rule to my knowledge is that if the client says the work is sub standard... Which some of these jokers do.. even after approving it lol.. then you have 3 tries to get it right.. (Don't know who decides if its "right").. And based on that you get paid..
Do look through their Ts and Cs..If its a small sum, I'd just walk away and move on.. Its a headache and your chances of getting anything that's not in escrow are slim..
-
George
If the client won't communicate with you, they are unlikely to communicate with PPH.
The so-called PPH 'guarantees' are all based on the client paying in advance for the work.
Having experienced a few years of very slow and very poor support from PPH, I doubt that they would even achieve a basic grasp of the facts.
I certainly wouldn't pay for a service which is likely to be ineffective at best. -
I've asked PPH to release the buyers details so that I may pursue my outstanding fee's. I have spoken to my solicitor and while the outstanding fee's are minimal and the solicitors fee's will likely exceed that of the amount owed I feel that it is important that this individual knows that he cannot get away with this undetected.
I feel totally exposed as a seller and there are no measures in place to stop this buyer from employing the same tactics in the future.
-
You're right about that.. I'd initially asked for them to atleast let us have access to information relating to the previous buyers have posted.. as a minimum.. But they won't even do that (PPH)..
Get your solicitor involved.. Perhaps the only way to change things.. If asking nicely doesn't work.
-
Well it turns out that I'm pretty resourceful when it comes to researching on google/ companies house using the minimal information available from PPH regarding the buyers details. Initials and a location and using info from the other job that he posted on PPH (and incidentally paid) have pointed to one individual who runs a business within my industry. If PPH refuse to release his information then I will have no other choice but to contact this buyer directly (if not only to make sure I've got the right person). That's not a phone call he'll be expecting. If that fails then I'll contact his professional body and after that the nearest debt collectors to his business address and tell them they can have the recovered monies in total as the fee. It's not a large amount of money but it'll be enough for them to knock on his door.
-
Yes - this one has come up before and PPH hide behind the 'Data Protection Act' to support their position.
It's difficult to see how a contract can actually exist in one or other of the parties is effectively anonymous.
I quite often find that the actual buyer is not the person who holds the PPH account but their employer or even a third-party who happens to have access to said account.
If the actual buyer was not legally a party to the agreement, this puts the seller in a very weak legal position.
On the positive side, there seems to be nothing to stop you from dealing directly with a buyer who was not a party to the contract.
-
Just to update.... it's ironic... I've posted a job on PPH as ''Legal Advice'' so that I can get a solicitors letter in order to get the buyers contact details and pursue them independently. Speaking with a couple of solicitors at the moment and it's positive news.
The job posting is getting a few likes so it would appear that I am definitely not on my own when it comes to getting ripped of as a seller on PPH. I would encourage anyone reading this to read the job posting and like if you agree with my course of action.
It's a pity that PPH have not established a more robust policy on this issue and choose to hope i go away. PPH customer support even had the brass neck to close the ticket as ''solved'' when it is obviously not.
I've been quite enjoying my freelancing experience here up until this point so it's a sad situation that i'm left out on a limb after PPH get their cut.
to be continued...
-
I had a similar issue to this, and I had the "Data Protection Act" thrown back at me when I asked for the customer's details so that I could pursue the outstanding money. It wasn't a lot of money but I had not asked for the complete fee as a deposit, because I thought that was unreasonable. My customer went quiet and wasn't responding to his messages and I just needed him to sign off the project and pay the balance. It didn't take much to track him down because I found his LinkedIn account, which pointed to a company name, and Companies House provided his address. I sent him a letter through the post and he agreed the project was finished and paid me. I have found that UK customers can be a bit difficult when it comes to invoices and they sometimes need a bit of a reminder in the form of a phone call or a letter. I was disappointed to find that PPH don't pursue an invoice in this way. The escrow system is useful to a point but once you have any additional charges that are not in escrow, it is harder to get paid through PPH than it is if you work directly for the buyer.
This leads into another legal issue that I have raised several times, with no adequate response. I am VAT registered, and I don't think it is legal, within the VAT regulations, for PPH to insist that the seller is working directly for the buyer while also hiding the buyer's identity and location. Either the buyer is my client and I need evidence of who and where they are, or I send my invoices to People Per Hour Ltd, and include VAT. Then PPH would invoice the buyer and include VAT if appropriate, depending on the buyer's location. PPH do show a country for the buyer but it is often wrong. They seem to default to United Kingdom, even when the buyer is clearly somewhere else. I can't really charge VAT and account for it properly when PPH will not provide the buyer's identity. I am also very uncomfortable when PPH produce VAT invoices on my behalf, and they don't even have a preview option before they are sent out.
-
This is very useful thanks Simon, for sharing!.. I had no idea that the country used by buyers is sometimes not the one they are in.. also, the questions on whom the contract is with, if the identity of that person is hidden.. On other platforms (Upwork for example) you have access to their full name if they accept your offer to work with them..
-
If you look at the forum there are quite a lot of posts from people complaining that PPH have listed them with the wrong location and others complaining that their default currency is wrong.
I saw a project recently where PPH said the buyer was in the UK but the buyer themselves said they were in the UAE in their project description. There was another where the job involved working with a Turkish government website, so I was suspicious about that. Another had a buyer who wanted a video conference call and they said their time zone was GMT + 3. So the country information is not reliable.
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
23 comments