Penalize Hourlies with late deliveries
If you wanna know more details, please go to my account and check out the hourlies I bought till now and look by yourselves how long these people needed to have the work done and how long they promise they will have the work done and how many of them really care about the job, or how serious they are taking their hourlies? 50% or less? This is crazy! If they do not need the job, go and have some fun somewhere else and PLEASE do not waste other people's time!!!
I was trying to be nice all the way and I really didn't want to pay those hourlies which are delayed like 10 days, 20 days or even 1 month! Are you kidding me?
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Well, there is only a max 5 day option on the hourlies. It might take more than 5 days for me to recieve an order for the components required to make the hourly. As my hourlies are custom made there are a few variables that would cause delay. I have written in the hourlie how long I would expect to be able to complete in.
I don't see it as written in stone, I see it as a guideline.
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I'd be rather concerned if some automated system were put in place to penalise Hourlies where delivery is beyond the expected date.
There are sometimes situations beyond the freelancer's control which could push back a deliverable timescale and as long as communication with the buyer is sufficient then there should be no problem. If a buyer fails to provide timely messages or the required information for a freelancer to complete a service, then in no way should the freelancer be penalised.
Of course, where a buyer is concerned that work isn't being carried out according to expectation and there's been no explanation from the freelancer then something needs to be done, but this should be a manual process handled between the buyer, PPH and the seller.
I must say though, the attitude and language displayed in the OP is not the way to handle complaints and disputes and a professional manner is not be the sole preserve of the freelancer - buyers should also conduct themselves with some decorum.
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If PPH wants to put penalize the Hourlies who deliver, I would suggest to make this a manual option instead of an automatic one so that the buyer can penalize the seller if they want to! Because in many cases, the Hourlie takes more time than 5 days! Moreover, PPH should allow up to 1 month based Hourlie because the notifications are bugging and most of the work can't be done in 5 days mostly because the buyer delays in replies. They have the work that we submitted and they want it revised but they sit there and take their time! But in some cases, like managing and creating websites and social media, you need more than 5 days in order to get everything to be processed and working perfectly and have satisfied customers! And if the buyer is happy and satisfied with the work, what is the need to penalize the seller? An automated penalizing system would just result in users discontinuing the use of PPH! They should add a penalizing option similar to the 'Request Deposit' option.
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The whole problem lies in the name hourlie. Yes, I understand that some jobs can be completed in a short time, but rarely in an hour. The name suggests a short time of completion and contractors expect this by implication.
Freelancers should act defensively and only post up jobs that can be completed easily within the timeframe suggested by the hourly templates. This in itself will loose diversity and originality in what people can do.
Penalties shlpould be a two way street - Contractors penalizing against unrealistic timeframes, quality of work etc and perhaps freelancers could penalize contractors for time wasting by not responding within 24 hours thus delaying the project. There's nothing worse than being held up on a job waiting for new info. Quite often you can't start anything else either.
Then we are in a totally negative situation, and in extreme cases nobody is focusing on the job, but on how they pay less or get paid more.
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I personally have had to wait a week for a client to give me the relevant information that I put on as "Needed from the buyer".
An idea would be maybe to incorporate a button that the buyer has to click on to confirm that all information has been sent and also that the seller agrees. Then there could be a "work in progress" status, whereby the clock starts ticking.
I totally agree that a freelancer should deliver on time, however they have to be in a position to be able to start the work in the first place of having all the info that they required. Why is it not deemed as a two way street in this process?
My work comes solely from PPH and I am getting more and more nervous about the rules and regulations that seem to be coming in.... It's all about process.......whereby the functionality is there for both parties to take part in this.
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That's a good plan, Katie.
Elance do something similar for their jobs whereby when an employer/buyer selects a freelancer/seller; the status of the partnership becomes something along the lines of "Negotiation of Terms". Only once the fine details are agreed by both parties does the clock start ticking.
Implementing something similar for Hourlies, extended to included the fulfilment of the sellers requirements would be hugely beneficial - in fact, the idea should be extended across the platform.
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When Hourlies first started you used to set a "start within" date and also be able to select how many hours it takes you to complete the job. There was no timeframe implemented and I never had any problems. The "how many hours" was a waste of time and confusing, as clients thought they had to pay the fixed amount per hour, so I'm glad that's gone ! But why not just revert back to the start "within ... days " ? If you allow a freelancer the chance to set their own time frames and a client is happy with these then what's the problem ?
Some freelancers will set longer time frame than others so if someone needs a job fast they can still have this. Likewise if a client have more available time and prefer a higher quality/longer process then they have the option for this. Just like we have different pricing options.
Then at least it's fair to punish a freelancer is they overrun their own time frame ! Five days is crazy and a month soon runs out when a client takes a week or two to reply per message. I finish a good 90% of projects well within a month, but sometimes clients have issues their end which take time to resolve. Why should a freelancer be punished for this additional time added to the project by the client ?
I usually sell a few hourlies per week and around 80% always say " please don't rush anything because it says five days on your advert." The imposed timeframe really is giving clients the wrong impression.
Another problem here is how they act with our money. If a client purchases they are paying us the money to complete the job, they are not paying PPH to complete the job. PPH is just the middle man who is in charge of looking after it so it's safe for both sides. However, it's no longer safe for freelancers, as if a client is slow to respond then we still lose this money. There's now actually more risks working through PPH then there are working outside of it. I only joined PPH for the added security but that's not even there anymore. Having money in Escrow means nothing at all as PPH can simply refund that after hours of your hard work.
If you just trust freelancers to set their own timeframes and don't get so involved the site could be much better than it is right now. The opinion of it from people who don't use it is really bad !
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@Ian
You make some very good points. When I first started out on PPH I was always on edge when selling an hourlie - wanting to ensure I delivered on time. Experience has shown that in 100% of hourlies sold to date I am held up on the client information - the automated PPH messages stating that "the buyer can now request a refund" don't help.
I offer excellent service, it's a shame that clients aren't subject to holding up their end of the bargain with hourlies - PPH should recognise this.
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I sometimes feel PPH penalizes the freelancer all too quickly. I appreciate this is to discover people who aren't interested in or capable of giving a specified service to their clients and, like most people, I would like think most freelancers advertising hourlies can actually do them but sadly some clients get really poor service from some freelancers.
That said, my particular bug-bear is clients who think it's okay to buy an hourlie and then ask for something completely different e.g wanting a plug-in rather than a site being moved and then telling me they expect it to take the same amount of time as the advertised hourlie. In these cases, I would appreciate the option of cancelling/refusing these work requests - unless it is something I can do in either the same amount of time or less.
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I agree with Matthew. I recently sold an hourlie to a client, gave him the completed work within the stated time frame but because I was waiting for his response before raising an invoice I then received a message from PPH saying the client was in his rights to cancel the hourlie and ask for a refund.
The fact that it's been over two weeks since I gave the client the work and he has since ignored my polite reminder emails apparently means nothing. I've since invoiced him and still had no response. It concerns me that the client is in his rights to cancel the job and ask for a refund even though I delivered the work on time - it's the signs of a deeply flawed system.
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Is it always the clients fault? Are there no hourlies who take jobs and then don't complete them? I have been let down by hourlies, and the deadline question wasn't an issue, they simply stopped communicating. This as happened three times now and I'm a little diusillusioned wiith PPH as a result.
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+1 to Paul. "We are all supposed to be adults."
I am not looking to apportion blame or say that one side should be penalized and another not.
I've been in the situation where I've completed work and delivered work on an hourly, only to experience delay in payment. My poor client had been quite ill but paid promptly and apologized profusely when they were able to.
On the other hand, I have had situations where I've been snowed under and, while I have accepted the job, I've not started an hourly for a few days.
I appreciate the original poster was annoyed when they posted the start of this thread, but there are two sides to every coin.
I think penalties do not promote healthy working relationships.
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One of the main things which makes things difficult is that hourlies are a few days and they include weekends which means (with automated penalties) that if someone buys a 1 day hourlie after 6pm on a Friday the seller is expected to work on their day off or be penalised.
When they introduce a start button (since I often wait over a week for assets to start the hourlie from the client as they are busy people so this would be great) and also an option for the timer to exclude weekends, that will make things much clearer and easier for both sides. I state I work weekdays UK time in all my hourlies, however it would be nice to have the days counted in a realistic manner so there can be no confusion for the buyer.
Just my 2cents :)
Thanks guys.
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Whatever system is put in place should be equal for both sides. If I have to respond to my client within 24 hours then why is okay for them to takes weeks to respond after I've already sent the work?
I also have hourlies in progress right now that have been waiting on client info for almost three weeks and that's just to get started. Can I cancel these without being punished?
I don't think an automated system will work but if we have to deal with it, both sides should be equally effected by it.
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Dionne, I agree, I am in the same position. I have also heard that there is an automatic refund process in place if you haven't invoiced within 60 days. Which I know sounds a long time, but I have clients that have purchased hourlies and 4 weeks down the line they are too busy to come back to you. They have used the feature like a shopping cart... which is quite a bizarre way to use the hourlie feature. But it's completely out of your hands at that point, you can't keep badgering a client.
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I am also in a similar boat - hourlie accepted, discussion with client identified that the hourlie would have to be expanded dramatically which was agreed by both of us, work started then holidays (on both sides got in the way). First pass has been sent to the client but he is too busy to look and now PPH have jumped in and refunded his escrow deposit, given me an arbitrary feedback of 1 and all the while the client and I are both happy with progress to date. We're both adults and understand that sometimes things get in the way and as soon as the client can get time to spare we'll get past the first hurdle and invoice for part 1. Why can't PPH get their heads around this concept - we are all grown ups and don't need the headmaster to sort out non existent disputes.
In fact all PPH are actually achieving is putting potential conflict into a situation where there is none.
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I have got 3 hourlies going on for about 3 months now. They are very tricky because they don't ask payment upfront as they know we cant report them that way. However they fail to deliver on what they promise. It is driving me mad they just keep promising me and I lost my temper. There are much better hire platforms than you are and you should look after your own staff quality.
There is another hourlie we paid £275 for a PR, he delivered the worst article I have ever come across in my life which we have obviously cancelled but after a week the payment has been released to him. He is still making excuses about things and it has been going on for 3 months now. All I want is my money back and I promise I will leave you for good.
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My Project holder is not coming back, I have done 50% of the job (I have finished clean illustration line art, I need her approval before I coloring it) how ever It has consuming my time and effort.
Project holder escrows $100 out of $340 total project cost.
what should I do? can I take that escrow money to pay my time and effort?
Can anyone give me solution?
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I am new to PPH. i have had about 20 jobs done. Mostly good jobs. But almost 30% of houris I bough never was delivered on time. The time started when i delivered all contents. I understand its not the providers top priority to do these cheaper job rather than their daily paid job. But they should not commit.
The last 3 jobs the money was released by PPH to the provider without my consent. The job was nowhere near being finished or delivered. Now the providers are not motivated to finish the job. One a simple WP template modification is 3 weeks old.
The PPH owner and providers have to remember if the buyers go away you all lose.
The last PPH action to release the money without even asking the buyer approval or allowing a dialog, was the last draw for me. I will not buy anymore from PPH until they have a coherent contact form and better protection of the buyers. Sadly most of the provider I had problem where Indian developers portending to be English or leaving in UK or US but all the communication comes from India.
I did have one very good indian developer that delivered on time but for most part they give you a little and they are gone for weeks. never finish a job completely and when they do its never good codes.
My 2cent.
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The whole idea is ridiculous!! why try to fix what isn't broken?? putting timescales on jobs just doesn't work FULLSTOP!! I get most of my work through here and from my experience it's the delay in clients getting back to you! and you think that stands as a good reason to penalise us!! whoever thought of this idea needs to re think it! I don't think its fair that the honest ones like myself who always deliver work when I need to and within good time get penalised because of client failure to respond!!
There is a simple solution! Scrap this whole idea and leave PPH as it is!! let clients and freelancers deal with job situations themselves and only on occasions where the parties cant come to a compromise then PPH can step in.
Seriously DON NOT IMPLEMENT this silly idea.
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I will add our view, for what it is worth. I believe there needs to be better and more proactive hands-on moderating with an individual approach. If a client is not happy with the length of time - they should be able to contact PPH (without freelancer knowing) and ask for a review. PPH staff should review the communications and then if required, issue a warning to the freelancer to get in gear and deliver in X amount of days or they may be penalised.
Likewise, if PPH find that after review, the client has caused delays in part as well, the freelancer should not be penalised but encouraged to complete the project within time frames and the client encouraged to cooperate to ensure that this can happen.
I believe just penalising freelancers is very dangerous. Right now clients have all the power - as it is far worse for a freelancer to have a bad review than a buyer. These 'good reviews' can be held for ransom at times and even if you over deliver they can either threaten a bad review or no review. There needs to be tighter parameters for leaving reviews (e.g. can't do so after 30 days from invoice) that makes the buyers be honest as well and a better system in-house with PPH for moderation in general. PPH offer a very good service and environment for both parties, however; they do need to ensure that they continue to put into it what they would like out. Thanks.
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Jennifer, it's funny that you mention the good reviews can be held for ransom. I've literally had my first experience of this. I delivered the job, have always had 100% positive feedback and I was asked to do something that was completely not part of the hourlie. So I said no. I was then threatened in a roundabout way of the positive reviewing process... so had no choice but to do what the client requested.
However I will say that I have previously gone to PPH support and found them to be brilliant in supporting me with any issues that I've had before....
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